www.team8plus.org/forum_v...p?6.170...
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John Doe II |
Sep 7 and 9: Proof of two Attas |
Lead | |
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That there are most likely two (maybe even more) Attas in the 911 story has been known (Paul Thompson has details in his timeline, German journalist Mathias Brckers and Andreas Hauss have dedicated a whole chapter of their book and Ewing2001 demonstrates the possibility of even more Attas) but that hard facts show that only two days before 911 Atta is at the same time at two completely different place and if one shall believe the Commission Report the same goes for Marwan Al Shehhi.
www.team8plus.org/forum_v...p?6.170... |
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michael meiring |
was waiting for officialdoms 'syrup and... | ||
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Well, wait long enough and i suppose a pancake and syrup officialdom theory will be released.
Perhaps that helps fit in the pancake and syrup type explanation of atta's passport not flying out of atta's pocket from the impact, then not somehow being hurled out of the cockpit, at such a speed to avoid the jet fuel, and then flutter down scores of blocks away to be discovered. This must be atta number '3' who was in the vicinity and dropped his passport. Or of course you can forget all the officialdom hocus pocus of jet fuel conspiracy theories, a plane leaving no wreckage or bodies at the pentagon et al. I mean would these liars be capable of planting atta's passport for a miraculous finding? judging from past attrocities commited and lie's told, i think so. Perhaps in another 3 years and x millions of dollars later we may be fed more versions of spectacular fantasy such as the NIST's pancake and syrup nutcase theories to explain all these Atta's. Just a small anomoly in the 'ayrabs did it', race haters frequenting these boards lately, is no arab names on the passenger lists. perhaps a NIST type government paychecked shill organisation will produce another pancake type wacko theory in 5 years? |
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nomo |
Get your facts straight | ||
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Sigh...
If you can't get your basic facts straight, why bother even entering the discussion? The miracle passport wasn't Atta's but Satam al-Suqami's. That still makes it a fishy story if not an outright scam, and this "Atta" guy sure needs further looking into, in the rigorous way Hopsicker did for example, but all you are doing here is shoot yourself in the foot. |
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Unregistered(d) |
Kinda like the two Oswalds, eh? | ||
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Atta isn't important.
None of the hijackers (or "hijackers") are. Spending time on them is like thinking that because your marble bust of Beethoven fell off your piano in an earthquake the fall caused the earthquake. You will never be able to trace back from those men to the planner(s) of 9/11. JFK researchers have had 42 years as of a week from Tuesday and have never done it in that case. The planners had to have MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY That's how you find the prime movers. Nobody really gives a crap about the pawns on a chessboard. It's the chess master who is important. Find a pawn, expose a pawn, kill one, jail one--another pops up in his place. Decapitate the chess master and the game is over. |
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John Doe II |
It's important | ||
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nomo:
Yes, it's important to get the facts right yet confusing this passport with Atta's passport has its simple reason that it was often confused in the media as well. Anyway since the Hearings we know that the passport was even found BEFORE the towers collapsed (sic) banned: I certainly do agree with you that this finding won't help proving who did 911. On the other hand it's impossible (for the moment) to prove with hard facts who did 911. That's why findings like this are important as they do prove with hard facts that two Attas were around only two days before 911. How do you reconcile this with the official story? How do you explain this without patsies without inside knowledge? This is a necessary step in deconstructing the official story and to explain to the wide public the need for a real investigation and the public access to evidences that so far have been kept secret. |
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Qutb |
Re: It's important | ||
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Thanks, John Doe. I agree, this is important stuff, much more so than the perceived anomalies in the physical evidence.
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michael meiring |
what i am led to believe | ||
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nomo,
when msm and officialdom quote me, atta's pasport recovered, i respond, when officialdom and their shills tell me jet fuel , pancake and syrup theories i respond. perhaps you might inform msm and likewise of their eroneous press lies, likewise officialdom, get the point? or is it a bit too advanced for ya? |
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John Doe II |
Adding | ||
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Atta on Sep 7 and 8 is watertightly proven in two different places at the same time.
Same most likely goes for Al Shehhi on Sep 9. Check out the source in the original post. |
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sunny |
Re: was waiting for officialdoms 'syrup and... | ||
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a plane leaving no wreckage or bodies at the pentagon et al.
____________________________________________________ Michael, can you direct me to a site that has good, credible evidence of "no bodies" found at the pentagon? Surely, families of the people who were supposed to be on that flight would have raised a stink by now, on some blog, somewhere?At least some of the bodies were identified at the towers. |
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dbeach |
Re: was waiting for officialdoms 'syrup and... | ||
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Al -qaeda = Al CIA Duh
Momo Atta..a long term CIA asset and paid assassin bet he's alive.. |
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John Doe II |
Sep 8 as well | ||
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Shown in the original link of this thread are proofs that Atta not only was on at least two different places at the same time on Sep 7 but also on Sep 8. As Paul Thompson's Timeline has been mentioned several times today let me add that all of Atta's appearances are mentioned in Thompson's Timeline. Unfortunately Thompon failed to give the exact date of the events.
If the presence of two Attas shortly before 911 can be proven you can't forget about all al Qaeda explanations: Why on earth would al Qaeda use TWO Attas? |
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Qutb |
Re: Sep 8 as well | ||
Quote: The same reason the CIA or anybody else they may have worked for would? We know Atta was a real person. Many details from his life are known. We know who his father is. We know both he and his father are/were members of the Muslim Brotherhood. My point is, if it looks like there were two Attas, that's certainly interesting, but one of them was the real Atta and the fact that he had a double doesn't in itself tell us anything about who he/they were working for. It is often assumed that if it can be proved that the operation was carried out with a certain level of sofistication, then that's an indication al-Qaida didn't do it. I'm not sure that's a correct assumption. That being said, good work, and it's interesting. |
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John Doe II |
Attas | ||
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Nobody doubts that Atta was a real person. But the problem is who was the official Atta?
The one drinking heavily in Shuckums on Sep 7 stating that he has money cause he's a pilot? The one that according tp FBI Mueller and the Commission was in Baltimore that day? Or the one that was witnessed by three persons drinking in a hotel in Sarasota very close to the hotel where Bush stayed on Sep 10? Who is it? And, why should al Qaeda go through this trouble? You say for the same reason as the CIA. The difference that the CIA would play on homeground and certainly has much more possibilities than al Qaeda working in the US. What advantage would it bring for al Qaeda? Wouldn't it simply raise the risk of the whole operation? And why does nobody in the US has any interest in revealing that there were two Attas? |
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Qutb |
Re: Attas | ||
Quote: Well, it's common in the course of an investigation to not let the public know everything you know or suspect. With all the secrecy surrounding it, we don't know much about what they're doing in terms of investigation, but we know that the FBI at least conducted one. Some key suspects have been arrested (at least it is claimed they have been), such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. There doesn't seem to be any interest in putting them to trial though. Quote: I dunno, why should the CIA? If they were going to establish a "legend", wouldn't it be better to stick to one person? Many of the hijackers are known to have used fake identities (several had appropriated the identities of people who are still alive). Key "al-Qaida" operatives/terrorists are known to alternate between many different personalities and identities, using fake passports, social security cards, visas etc. In Paul Thomson's timeline, there are reports of arrests made shortly after 9/11 of suspected associates of the hijackers who were in possession of fake social security cards etc. It's a part of the game. My point is that there is no reason to think that these aren't resourceful people. Besides, it's not that difficult to create false identities when you're an exchange student without many ties to the country you're temporarily living in. One thing they seem to do is take advantage of the confusion that arises when using several slightly different versions of basically the same name (Omar Saeed Sheikh, Sheikh Syed, etc) So is it such a stretch to think that they might have one or two operatives using the identity of another operative/terrorist? The reason I suppose would be paranoia (which, as we know, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you). Didn't Atta have 12 addresses too? Just playing the devil's advocate. |
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John Doe II |
Double | ||
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The FBI until today hasn't released a definite list of the hijackers. Yes, that's true. All lists so far always contain the words "possible", "believed" etc.
If the FBI indeed figured out that there had been two Attas (and btw two Al Shehhis, two Hanjours, two Jarrahs, two pairs of brother Al Shehri etc) I'm very fure they'd be happy to present this as an excuse for the difficulties they had but also of the danger of al Qaeda. Using fake identities and having many adresses is certainly a sign of terrorists (and spies) and can't be ruled out for 911 though the FBI doesn't even bother to identify the hijackers positively. This all is common. But it doesn't explain at all the appearance of TWO different persons using the same name, the same identity at two different places. Never has there been any terrorist attack where this tactic has been used that is known from state sponsored terrorism. It wouldn't make any sense for al Qaeda. Having people in the background that don't arouse suspicion and might jump in at the last moment ok but using the same identity? This only endangers the operation for no apparent reason. What's the gain? To disturb the FBI post-911? Why risk the whole operation for something comparatively unimportant and ridiculous? And what to do with the double Atta after 911? |
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Qutb |
Re: Double | ||
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But why would the CIA/whoever else have two Attas being two different places at the same time?
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AlicetheCurious |
Re: Double | ||
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Qutb, what is it with you and your 'debunking'? First, I have to admit that as an Egyptian myself, your pseudonym affects me like nails screeching on a blackboard, so maybe I'm overly sensitive to your comments.
Be that as it may, neither Mohammed Atta nor his father was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. At least, initial reports in the MSM stressed that Atta was, on the contrary, hostile to the Muslim Brotherhood and avoided joining even sport teams that were even tenuously associated with the Brotherhood. Mohamed Atta was (?) a very interesting person(s). Around two years ago, I spent several weeks researching the whole 9/11 operation and discovered some very weird things, including the fact that many of the "hijackers" had studied at US military training facilities. I went back and dug up what I'd written at the time: "On September 15, the New York Times reported that: The Defense Department said Mr. [Mohamed] Atta had gone to the International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama; Mr. [Abdulaziz] al-Omari to the Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force Base in Texas; and Mr. [Saeed] al-Ghamdi to the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio in Monterey, Calif." Maybe I will post my whole report on the EZ Board, if people are interested. For now, however, I'd like to just post an excerpt about one interesting place that Atta went, that has not been reported at all in the MSM... "In late 1999, Atta, al-Shehhi and Jarrah all reported their passports stolen. German officials speculated that this was so that they could obtain new passports free of any record of past trips to Afghanistan, perhaps. This unsupported supposition was widely reported, and in some cases was presented as a fact. Yet, according to the BBC (August 24, 2002), German intelligence told the New York Times that Mohamed Atta trained with al Qaeda in Afghanistan "between late 1999 and early 2000 with two others who subsequently piloted the planes used in the attacks." Again, no evidence whatsoever has been presented to back up this claim. If Atta had declared his passport stolen in 1999 so that he could hide any trips he had made to Afghanistan, why would he then use the new passport to travel to Afghanistan? Which still leaves the question unanswered: where was Atta during those mysterious three months in 1995 and fifteen months between 1997 and 1999? The evidence points to a place very different from the "terrorist training camps" of Afghanistan. As early as September 20, 2001, the Times mentioned that The Philippines Government was astonished to learn that a Saeed al-Ghamdi had visited Manila 15 times. An Ahmed al-Ghamdi came to the capital 13 times and left on September 10, a day before a man with the same name crashed into the World Trade Centre. Since Saeed al-Ghamdi is still alive and living in Tunis, where he was for 10 months before September 11, 2001, it is reasonable to assume that he was not the Saeed al-Ghamdi who traveled to the Philippines. Yet this was not merely a matter of "records"; on October 2, 2001, eye-witnesses had come forward, reporting Atta's presence on multiple occasions between 1997 and 1999 at a resort associated with the former Clark US Air Force base at Mabalacat in the Philippines. Five different employees of the Woodland Resort positively identified Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi as frequent guests during this period. The International Herald Tribune reported on October 5, 2001 that Mr. Al-Shehhi, whom the FBI has identified as the pilot of United Airlines Flight 175 when it slammed into the trade center's south tower, threw a party with six or seven Arab friends at the Woodland Park Resort Hotel here in December, said a former waitress at the hotel, Gina Marcelo. "There were about seven people," she said. "They rented the open area by the swimming pool for 1,000 pesos. They drank Johnnie Walker Black Label whiskey and mineral water. They barbecued shrimp and onions. They came in big vehicles, and they had a lot of money. They all had girlfriends." She cited "one big mistake they made." Unlike most foreign visitors, "They never tipped," she said. "If they did, I would not remember them so well." Victoria Brocoy, a chambermaid at the Woodland, recalls Mr. Atta, the Egyptian who investigators believe flew American Airlines Flight 11 into the trade center's north tower. "He was not friendly. If you say hello to him, he doesn't answer. If he asks for a towel, you do not enter his room. He takes it at the door." Mr. Atta was by no means a recluse. "Many times I saw him let a girl go at the gate in the morning," she said. "It was always a different girl." The accounts here tend to confirm reports from the United States that at least some of the accused hijackers had free-wheeling lifestyles full of sex and alcohol, and took precautions to keep their identities secret. According to the International Herald Tribune, Ferdinand Abad, a security guard at the Woodland Resort, recognized the van which picked Mohamed Atta up at the resort "two or three times a week" as belonging to the Angeles City Flying Club, which is owned by the same unnamed corporation that owns the Woodland Resort. Abad also identified the driver of the van as Melvin Troth, manager of the flying club. Troth, a master sergeant in the US Air Force who retired in 1986 after serving in Clark Air Force Base, "told investigators, however, that the names of Mr. Atta and Mr. Al-Shehhi did not appear in his records." CBS News, on September 12, 2002, reported that "hijacker ringleader Mohammed Atta was first summoned to Afghanistan for his initial instructions in the summer of 1999." The Manila Times, on the other hand, had reported as early as October 2, 2001, that a woman had come forward, identifying Atta and al-Shehhi: She was convinced the picture was that of Atta because at the time he was a visitor of the Woodland Resort hotel in Barangay Dau, Mabalacat, Pampanga in the summer of 1999, she serviced his room, being a chambermaid of the hotel. She told her current employer of her find and he in turn called a press conference to get it published. However, for some reason, the Manila newspapers gave the story no prominence and both the police and the town officials virtually ignored it. But the broadcast media, led by the TV Patrol of ABS-CBN picked up the story the following day and the Philippine Star played it up on its front page yesterday even if it reported that the Armed Forces of the Philippines Northern Luzon Command, which has jurisdiction over Pampanga, downplayed any terrorist threat in the area. The former resort chambermaid gave TV Patrol detailed descriptions of Atta and al Shehhi. Atta, she said, was short and stocky. He was brusque and treated Al Shehhi as a sidekick, she said. Quite a number of Arab-looking persons patronized the Woodland Resort from 1997 to 1999, according to the former chambermaid. In fact, she said, most of the guests were Arabs, who were, curiously, always accompanied to the resort by another Arab-looking person son known only as Sameer who could speak Tagalog and was presumably a long-time resident of the place. In the resort, there is a flying school using small planes owned by a British national. The Philippine Star reported Atta having gone to that school but its manager (the owner was away) earlier denied it. The former chambermaid reportedly claimed other Arabs took flying lessons in the out-of-the-way school. Why the resort apparently escaped the suspicions of the authorities, especially the local police, is hard to imagine. Additional details were provided in an article published on the same day by Gulf News: Al Shehi, together with another suspected hijacker, Mohammad Atta, were identified by five former employees of the Woodland resort in Mabalacat, Armed Forces Northern Luzon Command (Nolcom) chief Maj. Gen. Rodolfo Garcia said in a report. "I am sure Al Shehi had been a Woodland guest several times in 1997. I remember him well because I flagged his speeding car at least three times at the gate of Woodland," said former security guard Antonio Sersoza. Al Shehi used different cars and stayed at Woodland on several Saturdays. He knew how to speak Filipino, said Serzosa. He said he learned of Al Shehi's alleged link in the hijacking when a former colleague, chambermaid Victoria Brocoy, asked him if he remembered seeing Mohammad Atta at the resort. "I am not sure about Atta but I am sure about Al Shehi," he said. Atta registered under his own name, at the resort in December 1999. He even gave a $1 (P50) tip, said former security guard Ferdinand Abad. "He was the smallest among the Arab guests. He stood about five feet, six inches and his left eye was smaller than the right. He gave me a P50 tip after he asked what time the Aeroclub vehicle usually picks up flyers staying at Woodlands," Abad said in the report. Brocoy said she was assigned to clean up Atta's room during his stay at the resort in April 1999, adding he was among other men who took flying lessons at the Aeroclub in Barangay Talimundok in Magalang town. Inexplicably, the first two articles to be published, by the Manila Times and Gulf News, specify that Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi used their own names at the Woodland Resort, while three days later the International Herald Tribune makes a point of stressing that they "took precautions to keep their identities secret." However, only the International Herald Tribune specifies the name of the flight school: Angeles City Flying Club. A "Travel & Leisure" listing in the Philippines Headline News Online (PHNO) from February 26, 2000 states: The Angeles City Flying Club offers instructions from former US Air Force pilots in modern, well-maintained ultra-light aircraft." So, the notorious Mohammed Atta, recipient of the US$ 100,000 sent by Pakistani General and head of the ISI intelligence agency Mahmood days before the 9/11 attacks, was the same Mohammed Atta who studied at a US air force base, and was the same Mohammed Atta who was being taught to fly by former US Air Force pilots in a former air force base in the Philippines? I have lots more to say about Mr. Atta, but I guess this post is long enough for now. |
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Sepka |
Re: Sep 7 and 9: Proof of two Attas | ||
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How common of a name is "Atta"?
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AlicetheCurious |
Re: Sep 7 and 9: Proof of two Attas | ||
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"Atta" is an extremely common name, as is, obviously, "Mohammed" -- but we're not talking here about two people with the same name, since witnesses identified "Mohammed Atta" from his photograph. Two people with the same name who look identical, are around the same age, who take flying lessons at around the same time? Maybe.
But the Mohammed Atta who is supposedly the "ringleader" of the 9/11 "hijackers" is one big fat mystery, wrapped in an enigma. The more closely you look at the bizarre twists of his life, the more irreconcilable contradictions pop up. Despite what I implied before, I don't really believe that there were "two" (or more) "Mohammed Attas" -- but to fit what verifiable facts there are about him, it's got to be one incredible story. |
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John Doe II |
Two Attas at same time at different places | ||
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AliceTheCurious,
very interesting article and I'll be certainly interested in reading more of what you have on Atta! To stress it once again: Atta has reportedly been on two different places at the very same time on Sep 7 and 8. In both cases he has been identified with the help of a photo and his behaviour also indicated he was Atta eg in Shuckums on Sep 7 he yells "Do you think I can't pay? I'm an American Airlines pilot". If one assumes 911 was an inside job one possibility is (though I'm not saying this happened. It's a simple explication of having two people). One is your innocent person you want to assure he boards the plane and will be considered by everybody as the terrorists. The other looks quite like him, leaves the suspicious trail. He acts in the shadow of the first (in case of Jarrah this seems to be quite possible) and assures that all proofs will be in places they easily can be found. This of course is oversimplified but might explain the advanteges it has to have two instead of one Atta. |
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Qutb |
Re: Double | ||
Quote: Not sure what you mean? Quote: Other reports suggest otherwise. And his father seems to be too. His father also did praise the London bombings, saying there were many more like his son (who he initially had denied was involved in 9/11). Great research. I'm very interested in your information. |
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